Maayke (M): Hi, This is our second episode for our podcast for Amnesty International about human rights and today we are going to talk about the balkan situation. Today we have with us our guests Iva (I) and Srdjan (S), did I pronounce that right?
I, S: yes.
S: It’s an unpronounceable name, sorry about that.
All: laugh
M: Thank you for coming, could you maybe introduce yourself first?
I: Sure, Should I start first? Hello everybody, My name is Iva Vukusic. I come from Zagreb originally, from Croatia, but I have lived here in NL for the last ten years or so. I’ve just finished my Phd at the History department of UU, I am observing the involvement of paramilitaries in the breakup of Yugoslavia. I teach a couple of classes at the History Department and my background is in War Crimes trials in Bosnia and Herzegovina and the Hague.
Lieke (L): thank you.
S: My name is Srdjan Sremac and I’m originally from Serbia and I’ve lived here (NL) for about 13 years already and I work as an assistant professor at the Amsterdam Free University for 13 years already. I teach mostly in the field of religion, trauma, peace and nationalism, and other issues concerning conflicts.
L: Thank you. And Iva, how was it for you growing up in Croatia>
I: I was born in 1981, the war started 10 years later, I should say in Zagreb, the capital city. In comparison to other cities in Croatia, we were 50 km away from the frontlines, so to say. So I personally slept through this a little bit. I watched the state of my childhood collapse, but i was never hungry, no one came to my house with a gun, so I would say that I was aware of the war, the fear and nervousness in society, the economic consequences to a certain extent because a lot of my friends and family went from kind of middle class security to a state of nervousness and fear to what was going to happen, but relatively speaking I survived the war reasonably uninjured, luckily. It was difficult to miss it
L: Yeah, luckily indeed. And you said you experienced relatively little but did you notice anything such as sentiments against Serbians or others?
S: It was difficult to miss it. Yes, well I think nationalism or sentiments such as fear or war-mongering were present in communities in the reformer yugoslavia and in that sense the former yugoslavia is not unique, in places that go through conflict. I for example remember having refugees in my classes and I was like ‘Mom, what’s a refugee?’. So I was being introduced to quite a lot of things that I did not understand. But I remember as a kid, even before the war, starting to hear all sorts of nationally and ethnically-charged jokes that I would repeat at home and my parents were like ‘What the hell? No. We did not teach you this, where did you get this from?’. So it was just some ways in which separations were being created and things like that.
L: And for you, what was it like. Cause in Serbia it was a different perspective on things like that.
S: I can tell you it was a bit different. I was 14-15 years old when the war started in Serbia and I was a bit confused, what's going on, everybody was crazy. During that time, in the 90s Serbia was under sanctions and in hyper inflation, it was a really, really dark period , but I must say that I didn't experience any kind of conflict or anything. Maybe in 1999, when NATO bombed Serbia, that was the first time when I experienced war, fear, hiding in the basement for a few weeks or few months. Compared to Bosnia, for example we didn’t experience much, actually. It was difficult, different financially, economically, we couldn't travel but we didn't experience any war conflict, seriously.
I: So Actually it’s quite similar or I would say it’s quite similar
L: Yeah or similar in terms that you noticed that like nationalism and those kinds of sentiments but not much violence.
S: Yeah, but nationalism was everywhere, I mean football games, matches. And as kids when we were like 14 it was very important to be Serbian, all of a sudden, everything had completely changed.
L: Didi you say it was already present, before the conflict had started? Because of course, before in WW2 there were already conflicts, so did you notice it before, or...?
S: Uhmm Do you want to say something?
I: In the 1980s I noticed nothing. I grew up in a household that was not particularly Yugolavian, not particularly Croation or religious so I could have grown up on Mars so there was no talk. I think I first heard about Croats and Serbs in 1990 so I grew up kind of shielded. In my family, we talked about the resistance in WW2 so that’s why grandpa’s dead, he was shot through the lung, the other one to the leg. So there was a recollection of a physical debt that was paid in WW2 but beyond that I did not hear until sort of the year before the war, 1990 or so.
S: Well i have to say that I come from the Northern part of Serbia, which had lots of young Serbs, Croatians, so it was totally different than the rest of Serbia but I was aware because my grandma there was a part of the partisans during WW2 so she was part of the generational transfer of trauma , she was always talking about Croats and what happened during the war so in that way I know that it was totally different.
M: Do you think that maybe, because you both say that you had it pretty good compared to the people from Bosnia, that maybe, because you were still children you were shielded from what was happening or you think that it was just because the way it was for everyone around you?
I: Well I think it depends on your personal circumstances, for example if you were from Bukova then there was nothing to shield you from it, you know what I mean?
M: mhm
I: So I think parents as well, I mean, would normally not try to have you in front of TV, I mean, it was something really bad happening. Children would talk in school, professors would mention it, in the 90s it was increasingly discussed in school, we used to sing patriotic songs, you couldn’t escape it, but i think parents made an effort to not put you in front of these things.
M: Did you notice when nationalism started, like nationalist jokes and everything? Di dyu notice in school that some of the people were put behind other ones?
I: Well I noticed that some of the people were and we had a bunch of kids, the Bosnians and Croats especially, ended up in our schools, so there were demographic changes in our schools. So that was something that I sort of remember from the school days.
S: I remember that many of Croatain friends suddenly just disappeared. And then later when many refugees came from Bosnia it was very different.
L: and could you explain the conflict of it, like how it started…
(all laugh)
E: Do you have a week?
L: well just a general outline
I: So in the late 1980s there was like recognition that there were some systemic problems in Yugoslavia, economic but also systematic as in there was difficulty in agreeing on the constitutional interpretation of the state, so was it centralistic and there was from WW2 a lot of accumulated trauma and unresolved sort of problems and victimhood. So there was conflict about the nature of the state, the Berlin wall also fell. And there was this opportunity to remake the state, so to say. Various nationalist kinds of options tried to use that situation where they would try to take territories that they considered historically theirs. There were a number of smaller conflicts within the breakup of Yugoslavia but I would say that the worst violence took place in Bosnia and Herzegovina between 1992 and 1995. Overall I think the conflict took aout 140.000 lives or so, and there was also a hugely dramatic for a large number of people who were displaced and suffered injuries and rapes and God knows what. If you are interested in that kind of stuff I can at the end recommend a couple of books on that stuff because I really can’t summarize it in a better way in 3 minutes.
M: Understandable
I: that would have to do.
L: And there was also, as you mentioned, in Bosnia, a large number of women put in camps, could you like say if there was a lot of sexual violence?
S: Well, there was a lot of sexual violence in Bosnia but there was alos a lot of male to male sexual violence during the conflcit and it is really interesting as well, not much research is done, except for the last ten years or so, but it’s very difficult for the victims to talk as well, you know a real man can’t be raped, not only taht someone is raped but i mean in a patriarchal society it automatically means that you are homosexual so it’s a double. Well, I would say that in the last 10-15 years more research has been done.
L: Well, do you think, as you’ve said there was kind of a double stigma, so does that still play a role, is there still a lot of unresolved trauma in current societies?
S: I would say yes, I mean we don’t talk about it, the thing is how do we know that people don’t talk about that to some extent. There is a lot of transgenerational trauma, not only from the last war but from the second world war as well.
L: Yes, you are right and I guess the main problem for journalists is to see the whole situation, could you elaborate on that a bit?
I: I can’t because that’s not what I study and I don’t live there anymore. I used to live there between 2006-2009, but what I follow now has more to do with war crimes, war crimes trials, victims, expression of opinions of journalists is not really my area, so I don’t want to go around slapping opinions that might not be accurate.
L: Alright, noof course , I understand. Did you notice anything that went against freedom of press --
I: I was working in zagreb at the time, so I followed politics there but I never, in my experience as a journalist, felt suppressed or anything. But I’ve never worked as a journalist in Bosnia so I would never be able to speak on that experience.
M: Do you have any colleagues that have any experiences with it? Or can I not ask?
I: You can ask, of course, but as I said I can’t comment on that because it is not my expertise.
L: And a bit more on like the influence of religion on the transgenerational trauma and the conflict, can you explain more on that?
S: Religion was very important. It was not just a religious war, it was a civil war with religious repercussions. And paradoxically, the muslim people, who were in power at that time, politicians were atheist but manipulated through their feelings. Throughout the 90s we recognised that in the Balkans and in E Europe we had desecularization compared to secularization in Europe, so in the end it proved to be a religious nationalism, because the nationalism proved to be weak, so it needed religion to empower that. And all of a sudden in Seria 90% of people declared themselves Orthodox Christians, ten years before it was like 10-20%. So basically religion was extremely important. And let’s say that 10-15 years ago we started to think, some of my colleagues, what is the role of religion in the reconciliation process and in the conflict and how can we talk about God for example. And I think that religious communities had huge roles during the conflict, they didn’t do much for the reconciliation process, I would say, but religion was extremely, extremely, important, not only for the conflict but for the nation building as well. And today, when we talk about LGBT rights, we talk about religious and sexual nationalism. And when compared to the Netherlands, it is not that different. You have here homonationalism which is always connected to nationalism in a way. So if you are Dutch you are open to the gay community because it is a part of your identity, but in Serbia it’s the other way around. So if you are Serbian and Orthodox, you have to protect your traditional values from this, for example. Now the situation is way better than 10 years ago, for example, not only from conflict and nationalism but in terms of sexuality as well.
M: Was it strange for you to come to teh NL and to a place that was more open about homosexuality?
S: No, not at all.
L: Well you still mentioned that religion plays a part in many aspects in current day society, then how does it play a part in this example, the situation for human rights or, you mentioned, the LGBT community… How is it today, because you mentioned that it is much better than 10 years ago, could you maybe elaborate a little bit?
S: Well the church is never completely open towards LGBT issues, but I would say the church, in Serbia, is really really privileged. And in the 90s you could see Church property being returned and the Church was part of the army and Church and State are very close. I’m not sure in Croatia. The Church and State shared two similar ontologies, the sacred and state always going together.
L: Can you say maybe….
I: Well I can try to say, given that I haven’t been to Croatia in 13 years already. But I have friends who are active so to say in the LGBT movement and in the early 2000s with the first Pride parade in Zagreb as far as I remember there was a lot of threat of violence. I remember that it wasn’t as bad as in Belgrade, but it was pretty bad. People were beaten up and things like that. Now, 10, 15 years later it’s full of glitter and balloons and things like that. And the second largest city in Croatia it started out sort of difficult, but some space is opening up. Generally, croatia is a very conservative society, but there is some resurgence of the Catholic church and it is trying to influence policy regarding abortion now which is interesting because the issue of abortion has been fixed in teh 1960s in Yugoslavia now. At the same time there is a lot of outrage when these conservative influences go over the secular boundaries. For example there is now a debate in Croatia over whether same sex couples shoudl have the right to adotion, so its like 2 different worlds-a very conservative and very progressive one.
S: there was for instance a Lesbian film festival in Ljublaana in 1984, so society was more open. But in the 90s, when society became more religious we could see some conflicts.
L: So you could say that it went backwards during or after the conflicts.
I: I think that you also need to have in mind the differences between urban and rural populations like in many other places in the world, urban people are sort of educated people and are more likely to see eye to eye, across boundaries. So I don’t want to say that all urban people are educated but generally there is a difference between urban and rural people in terms of values and kinds of things like that. So there is a sharp distinction in society between these sort of conservative or progressive forces on human rights issues, I would say.
L: And maybe a bit more general on the situation of human rights issues.
I: that’s a huuuuge topic!
L: (laughs) of course…
I: I just want to say that it is difficult to assess and just to assure you, we don’t follow every development across you know…
L: It’s large, but you know the Human Rights Watch, they make this overviewevery year and they talk about refugees in several of the former Yugoslav countries and discrimination of people with disabilities in Croatia, and, more on the topic of war crimes prosecutions
I: On that I can talk however much you want. Because that’s what I study and that’s where I can speak with authority. Across the board there has generally been a trend of decrease of attention, money and effort to prosecute war crimes. There’s several reasons for that, but I think citizens should insist on prosecuting people who are killers and rapists. In Croatia it’s quite difficult in the sense that ethnic Croats are persecuted for crimes against Serbs; they tend to get a better, more lenient treatment than for example when Serbs are prosecuted for crimes against Croats. There is a sort of idea that well, our boys didn’t mean it. There are procedural problems and some processes that can take up to 10 years. Bosnia and
Bosnia and Herzegovina has an entirely judicial system. Overall I would say that the best days for war crimes prosecution in the former Yugoslavia are over. I am seeing kind of this reminisce of these efforts and I think all of this is going to fade away, I mean it’s just, there is no steam. Since Croatia has joined the EU, for instance, there has been no pressure to do it. So war crimes prosecution is generally a forgotten topic. WOuld you…?
S: Yeah, it;s not..It’s not my expertise but I agree.
L: Maybe the political players could prioritize it? MAybe nationalism or religion can also play a role there?
S: I’m not sure how religion could play a role in that but nationalism maybe. It’s not my area aso..
L: yeah of course no. It’s kind of like how you mentioned, it's our boy's sentiment…
I: You see that everywhere, we see that in the UK, teh USA, so let's not make the Balkan look weirdly.
M: I was actually wondering, these war crimes, how everyone kind of divided themselves into groups and did religion also play an aspect, was it used as a legitimation?
S: yes, indeed. i published a paper on this but I have to say that it is very very difficult to find a clear connection between religion. SO for example if Serbs are going to torture Muslims, it’s not going to be about religion, but about ethnic identity. So, I cannot find a clear connection between religion. The problem is that if it's religious nationalism, then religion and nationalism are mixed together and it is difficult to separate them. So that is a main problem in the balkans.
L: You also talked about how males were raped during the wars and that kind of damages the notion of masculinity
S: Yeah, the Croatian media never mentions that, precisely because it is difficult to accept that Croatian men can be raped and same for Serbia and Bosnia and Herzegovina, there is no difference. It’s kind of the notion of militarised masculinity and there is a connection with religion, definitely.
I: If I can just add to that, there is, I never studied religion specifically when tied to war crimes, but there is a lot of evidence from various war crimes trials and there are hints of how people were tortured and had crosses carved into their skin, and also the burning of mosques or churches in the former Yugosloavia. ANd that is a way of erasing the fact that a community existed there. So this is where I, a non-expert in religion, see hints that show more complex reasons why people or communities were harmed.
L: The current situation, it's of course very complex, but the mixup nationalism of and religion as far as you know, do you think it still plays a part in society?DO you think the second generation still grows up with certain ressentiments?
S: There is some research that shows that the second or third generation are actually less tolerant and more exclusive than our generation, growing up in the war. Not much research is done on that, but I think that transgenerational trauma and narrative transfer is a huge problem for the balkans.
L: In the sense of reconciliation and working towards the future, would you see that as a big obstacle still to be solved?
I: I’m such a skeptic about reconciliation. I wrote my masters thesis on it about 15 years ago and now I don't know what it means or how to built it
S: the term is very loaded, I would rather use terms like facing the past. I am not so optimistic about it. my main critical question is going to be what are we going to do with people that don’t want to reconcile, what are you going to do with them? So in a way it's a very challenging, yeah.
I: I often get asked, you know oh well, that we need to reconcile and solve things. If someone came to my house, raped my mother and got my father into a camp, i have no desire to reconcile, for example at the end of the murder trial, no one tells the victims and teh murderers to hug. To a certain extent it's fine not to reconcile. FOr example, the Civil war in the US, there is still no shared narrative but they have learned how to live with it. Society is complicated, so what we should require people to do is to accept basic facts of what happened in the war.
M: Do you think it is realistic to expect people to start realizing the actual facts.
I: WHere there are still people who don’t accept that the earth is round and about the Coronavirus, so these are things that are deeply human, so i don’t know how you can make everyone inform themselves. Maybe our educational system or the media, these are just difficult problems to resolve.
S: And nobody wants to hear about reconciliation in Bosnia. ANd for instance in S Africa, it's the same, people have a feeling that the story of reconciliation is forced upon them, it is not their choice. I agree that we have to talk about it, but…
L: And do you think that focusing on human rights issues would that work better instead of reconciliation?
I: yes, and just improving general conditions in society that relate to employment and infrastructure and things like that. If people live happier lives, they would be maybe less likely to hate. that's not to say that if everyone had a job things like that wouldn’t happen, but still, you know. So i think just generally improving society and minority rights
M: I was also wondering if becoming scholars and learning more about the conflict and human rights, did it change the way you viewed the conflict?
I: i just realised that the more I know, the less I like it. WHen i was 11, you know, it was Milosevic’s gang attacking us, we are victims, and the more you know about it the more nuances you see.
S: probably yes, I guess i did have an experience as a witness which made it easier to recognize some stuff, but i am still confused.
L: I think that was it.