HUMAN RIGHTS TODAY: The Podcast series - Episode 1 Syria

As the Editorial Committee of AISU we are busy generating (media) attention for various human rights abuses in this world. One way to do so, is to give the people who lived through them a voice. That is exactly what we are doing with our series of podcasts!

In the first episode we discussed the ongoing conflict in Syria with Eyas. Eyas, who grew up in Aleppo, has fled to Lebanon and later the Netherlands to escape the violence in his home country.

Below you will find the full transcript of this episode. The podcast itself can be found on Soundcloud or by using the link posted on our socials and this transcript.

Link to Podcast: https://soundcloud.com/user-339329314-286808273/human-rights-today-episode-1-syria

Claudia: So hello everybody. We, here at Amnesty International Utrecht, are going to be starting our podcast series in which we talk about topics which relate to human rights. And our first guest today is Eyas, Eyas thank you for joining us.

Eyas: Thank you so much.

Lieke: So, I’ll introduce you a bit more. Because of course you are originally from Syria. And I believe that after that you left to Lebanon, and now you’re here in the Netherlands. Today we are going to talk about the conflict in Syria. So first we would like to ask if you are comfortable with it if you could tell us something about how was your live in Syria, what was it like, and why did you leave?

Eyas: Yes, I think during the lecture I gave for the VU, I taught 3 months ago or something, I talked about it freely back then so...

Lieke: Well, feel free to share, we love to hear.

Eyas: Well, where do we start. I don’t know, do you have questions?

Claudia: So, you said that you’re originally from Aleppo. And how was live back there before the conflict started?

Eyas: I was 18 or 17 when the conflict started. So, if you’re like teenager back in Syria, you are not aware about what are political issues back then. Because you’re just teenager. Your busy with school, with friends having fun. You know. But also at that early stage when the conflict started, you become more aware of what’s happening. Then, I started to become more open about it. All these questions, all these different stories. Who do you need to believe. What fight you need to believe. Why do you need to believe this part, or why do you need to believe that part. So all this stuff would help you to adjust your mindset about how you see stuff.

Claudia: So was it something that happened with all teenagers. Like, did they al become more invested in learning about politics, or did some still not care that much?

Eyas: well, politics, the subject itself in Syria is a little bit.. Not everybody can speak about it you know. It’s like there is a line, I think I mentioned that before. There is a line in Syria, that, if you cross it, of course you’ll be punished by the government somehow. But if you don’t cross it you’ll just life your life freely as normal citizens. You have your rights; you get your rights. But the moment you cross that line there are consequences.

Lieke: So, growing up in Syria, it was not that you felt like you couldn’t live your life freely?

Eyas: You can life your live freely, but there are boundaries. But then you just adjust your lifestyle with these boundaries.

Claudia: And even before the conflict started, these boundaries I guess where there?

Eyas: Yeah, of course. It’s like every structure and every government, you know. Especially in the Middle East, or Arab countries, everything.. I think all leaders follow the same ideology somehow, you know. Like, don’t abort [unclear] me, don’t give your opinion. It’s simple, you know. If you live your life freely? Yeah. You have your rights, you have everything you know.

Lieke: And for you, what changed that you said, well now I can’t live my life freely anymore, and made you want to leave?

Eyas: Well, we left Syria because of.. Like I have two brothers, so we have three guys in the family. And back then, when you are 18, and my brother is like 22 like then. So, this is the age where you need to go to the military if you finish university. And my dad took the decision ‘oke, I don’t want to fight, I don’t want that blood on your hands, so we’re going to flee’. Like, there is, when you compare it, always the bad and the worse, you take the less.

Claudia: The lesser evil.

Eyas: The less evil way. The decisions you make, you take the less painful way or the less harm.

Lieke: So it wasn’t really a politically motivated decision? Like, for example when you strongly identify with one side of the conflict. That wasn’t really the case, in your decision to leave.

Eyas: It was.. So, it was back in Aleppo, when it sparked.. It took one year to complete, to reach Aleppo. So we’re just observing what is happening in all the cities in Syria, you know. Because it started in South en then moved up to North. That took a year. So we observed what is happening. What kind of behaviours that people are doing. So, we become more aware of that. You know, we see ‘oke, now its starting in the country side of Aleppo’. You start seeing different people in the cities. Then you see ‘oke, there is something weird happening’. Then you hear stories about people being kidnapped for the money, people disappeared for the money. And that is not a government issue, but people just become gangster somehow. They need money, you know. So, to prevent being called the army or being kidnaped, we said ‘oke, we just leave now’.

Lieke: and when you left, you went to Lebanon right? And how was that situation? Because from then you were a ‘refugee’. How was it organized?

Eyas: in the borders, before you go to Lebanon, they will ask you ‘do you have a hotel booking, or do you have somebody inside, do you have money to go?’ Of course we knew, we asked.. We had before we came to Lebanon. So, we said ‘yeah we have everything ready. This is our hotel, this is our residence, this is our reference, if you want to call them, call them’. So oke, you go in. Of course we lived in a hotel for like 2 weeks. Until we found an apartment to rent. And then we just started working, just like I did here you know. The moment you start a new life technically, you need to start from zero, you need to start finding a job. From there you can just build up your future again.

Claudia: And how was life in Lebanon? Did people treat you differently because they knew you were from Syria?

Eyas: yes and no at the same time. Because I don’t know if you’re familiar.. But in Lebanon every structure in the country belongs to religious parties. So, there’s Beirut for Sunna and there is South for Shia and there is the mountains for Druze. We lived in the mountains and these people.. They are so closed a community somehow. They protect themselves. They don’t care about what’s happening in Lebanon in general, but they follow their leadership; what they say. So, if you just behave like normal human beings, of course you feel welcome, you know. Don’t do any bad stuff. But of course, we were just in this closed community. But you’ll feel the difference if you go in the weekend to Beirut for example, city centre of course. They will look at you ‘hey I hear different dialect’. So he is Syrian, you know. But from different kind of people, not just like the government or.. But, like, the moment you up to the mountains.. It just, you find this switch when you go up and down.

Lieke: So, its mainly just the people in Lebanon themselves that see of course..

Eyas: Yes, they have different opinions. Some people see Syrians.. ‘they took their jobs’, for example. And some said ‘yeah but they are helping our economy now’.

Lieke: It’s the same old discussion with when refugees come in; do you welcome them or..

Eyas: Yeah, same with the Dutch people over here. They took our jobs.. It’s, everything is like history is repeating itself somehow. You know, like every community has the same mindsets technically. Its just how we build up our culture, I think.

Claudia: For how long did you stay in Lebanon?

Eyas: I think for 3 years, 2.5.

Claudia: And what made you want to move from there?

Eyas: The routine, the boring lifestyle technically. And of course the safety. It wasn’t because.. Like then, you had to pay for.. Like every year you had to pay 800 dollars. I don’t remember the number, like 800 or 200. Just fees to the government to stay for 1 year, you know. But back then, 200 dollars wasn’t easy to make, you know.

Claudia: But then was 200 dollars mandatory for everybody or was it just for Syrian refugees?

Eyas: For Syrians, refugees, to stay in Lebanon. Like as a permanent staying, but they do it every year. To stay. So we have legal papers, as citizens.

Lieke: And you also mentioned safety. Did it get less safe to stay in Lebanon?

Eyas: So, if you look to the last year. What’s happening in Lebanon, al these revolutions and stuff. People would start sensing it before that. You feel the tension between the people there. Between the leaders, the parties. You feel the tension. So, we said we don’t need any conflict again. So, people.. And this.. Like, people start coming to Europe, so the hype starts more louder. So ‘oke, let’s see what’s happening in Europe’. So my dad did his homework. He found out, ‘oke there is Germany or the Netherlands’ and we picked Netherlands to come.

Lieke: And was it also because, there is so many different parties fighting in Syria, but one of the parties I believe is Hezbollah, which is Lebanese. Was that also something that played a part in how you were received in Lebanon?

Eyas: Yeah, so it’s.. If you go to... The Shia, or Hezbollah was controlling the South of Lebanon. But also part of Beirut, you know. So, were we live in the mountains, they had in the ‘70s or 2000, they had kind of like civil war between them. So, we were against Hezbollah somehow, but we are.. Because we get that from the community we lived for 2,5 years. We heard a lot of stories from them. But when we moved… Because Hezbollah and Syria are allies. Because when you live in Syria, you say ‘oh well, Hezbollah is defending Lebanon’. But when you live inside, you say ‘but they’re doing a lot of bad stuff also inside’. So, different stories you hear, but you don’t need to know.. You need to not trust al these stories you know. You just need to listen and observe and then reflect on how you’re going to do it. What kind of [unclear] you want to get. Because everybody put spices on the stories you know, so not every story is true.

Lieke: Yes, of course they all have their own versions.

Eyas: Yeah, of course. And for their own benefits. So, if you want to look to Hezbollah when I was in Syria, I was like ‘oh they are good friends to us, our allies, we’re supporting them, they’re supporting us, we’re friends’. When you move to Lebanon you say ‘hmm they’re doing some bad stuff for this community’. Now you see how they’re dealing with different people in Lebanon. You say ‘hmm they’re not good, but they’re not bad at the same time’. Because they also have this mentality of defending Lebanon form Israel or from Americans.

Lieke: But, you mentioned from when you were in Syria you saw Hezbollah as ‘they’re defending us’, I take it you weren’t that you weren’t too happy about the revolution starting in the South?

Eyas: That’s the point, like every Syrian.. If you’re not… Talk about the different people now with their [unclear]. Every Syrian would have different story. And, none of us have the true story. Cause it’s based on our personal.. you know? For us, it depends on from who you receive the harm or the damage. That’s when you switch sides. Both sides are bad. Both sides are worse than others. But there’s again.. There’s, one is better than the other, you know. We have a saying in Arabic [Arabic saying]. That is ‘to close your eyes is better than becoming blind’. So always there is worse, and then there is ‘slechter’ [Dutch].

Lieke: Even worse.

Eyas: Yes, There’s even worse.

Lieke: Cause before the revolution, well you mentioned your life was.. You can live your life freely and then the revolution started and for you personally it became worse after that?

Eyas: Yeah. Of course, because back, let’s say from 2000 until 2011, when Bashar [Al-Assad] took over, people said ‘yeah he took it from his father’. All this bullshit they talk about, but this is just how, back in the Middle East, this is how everything works. The son and the dad gives it to his son. You know, this is how it works. Is it democracy? No. But this is how it works, you cannot stop it. People don’t have power to change it. And if you’re going to change it, it’s going to be hard. It will just take too much time. And the revolution started correct. They want to change the regime. Of course, there was corruption, there was all this bad stuff. The first six months was perfect. They wanted change. Until defence started showing up and we saw the blood on the streets. From the moment there was blood on the streets, you know, it was not a revolution anymore. From both sides.

Lieke: Then it was just a civil war, basically.

Eyas: Yes. Then you say ‘this is not good’. Cause now, you can see everything doubled; the prices, economy wise. Supply chains for the Syrian subareas [unclear], went up. They start hiding materials, to wait and see the prices go up, so they can sell it again to people. So, it’s just fucked up back then.

Claudia: And what would you say about the media coverage in Europe of the conflict there. Do you think its accurate? Do you think it’s a bit biased?

Eyas: The Dutch news.. When I see the news back in… Like, now and when I saw the news in Syria, it’s completely different. They show you like, say 40 or 30% of the truth of what’s happening. Cause they also.. What I believe, they want to make the people afraid of what’s happening there. They don’t show the full story. The moment you see the full story you say ‘hmm it’s not that bad’, you know. But they always keep the fear between the Dutch people, or Europe let’s say, from what’s happening there. This is how also they control people, by fear.

Claudia: So you’d say that they portray it as worse then it is in reality?

Eyas: Yeah, you can.. Just see it, like… I don’t know, if you watch also news about the Corona-virus, like China saying oh we have thousands of people… But there’s like ten thousand people already.. You just have to ask people from China like, ‘hey what’s going on there’? And they’d just give you everything.

Lieke: So, the news media, it’s also for the benefit of Europe basically?

Eyas: Of course.

Claudia: And how would you say that, people from Syria were treated in the Netherlands for instance? Because throughout Europe you hear all these stories about racism and people being annoyed that immigrants are coming. To take their jobs, coming from a different culture and that sort of things. Would you say it’s true, or is it.. The pictures in the media, is it the same for you?

Eyas: You can sense sometimes from different people that they’re racist. But not because I’m Syrian, it’s just because I’m an outsider. They would be racist if you are dark skin, if you are Chinese; If you are an outsider and you are living in a ‘buurt’ [Dutch: neighbourhood] outside, let’s say, not Amsterdam, different village. They would say, ‘okay who is this guy’. ‘Why is he here’, you know. The first thing they would ask you is ‘where are you from’. And then, oke, then they know. Then they say oke.. The first thing is like ‘hi, how are you, were are you from?’. And then.. Now if you ask me I say Amsterdam. Because I’ve been living here for five years already and I can speak a little bit Dutch. So I reply that to the Dutch. But then they say like, ‘oke, but where you from originally’. I don’t care.. You don’t need this information. Now I’m here. I’m here now. That is what you want to know.

Lieke: Because you mentioned in the guest lecture that you don’t want to be ‘Eyas the refugee’ anymore, because you feel like that’s what people here define you by?

Eyas: Yeah, so the moment you come in, the give you the ID and say like ‘asielzoeker’ [Dutch: asylum seeker] and they start and go like ‘asiel’ [Dutch: asylum]. This.. It starts at the beginning. Before, we didn’t know what ‘asiel’ means you know. Now we know what this means. And we say, ‘oke we need to change that’. And then they change it to… Like if you get a house.

Lieke: Statushouder [Dutch: residence permit].

Eyas: Yeah, then we’re like, ‘oke, we also don’t like that one’. So they call us newcomers. Everybody that comes to the city is a newcomer. You know, so we made it like.. it’s expanded. If you come to study here, you are a newcomer. If you come here to work, as an expat, you are a newcomer. So, just to change the word refugee to newcomer. And that would also help the Syrians who are also here. Like now, I’m a refugee. I said that a lot. Like, ‘hi, I’m Eyas, I’m a refugee’. No, you’re not. Shut up. Don’t say that.

Claudia: So do you think it’s better now that you use newcomer, to a certain extend?

Eyas: That was for like, 3 years ago or something. The moment I registered myself in the ‘kvk’ [Dutch: Chamber of Commerce], now I’m Eyas the photographer. You know, the moment you stop getting money from the government, now you’re all by yourself. So I’m by myself now, done.

Claudia: And would you say that there is a community of people from Syria in the Netherlands, or within Amsterdam that you have connected with?

Eyas: Yeah, so it also depends on the people. I know Syrians, they just come here and they are taking money from the government and they just smoke some weed and sit home. They do nothing, you know. They finish their exams from like the ‘inburgering’ [Dutch: civic integration] and then they’re just like ‘this my life’. They’re happy with that, nothing wrong with that. If you’re happy, do it. But, for me, the moment I came to the Netherlands, I spend like a month doing nothing. And I said no, I need to do something I cannot just stand still. So I bought my camera and started learning. Everything by myself. I went to meet ups, just to give my business card and say ‘hey I’m a photographer’. I had no idea about what a photographer was you know. I just go there. If I look at those pictures now, I laugh at myself because of that. And how they took those pictures, I don’t know. And they payed me for it. So oke, beautiful. So you just need to have the drive within you to do that.

Claudia: Have you always thought that you would be a photographer, or did you have a passion for photography?

Eyas: Yeah, I had done it before. Back in Syria I had this small film camera. I took photos. It was from my uncle. Yeah, I would steal it from his workshop, take it out, take pictures, put it back again. And then he would say, ‘hey Eyas, did you take my camera’. Because of course it’s film, it’s not digital. So he knew about it. So yeah, this is how it started. Then I come and here and, you know, there’s new language, new culture, you need to find something to do, you love to do, to fit in the society. And then people would just take it from there. Just, the ball starts rolling, it kind of becomes bigger and bigger and bigger.

Lieke: And back to like the conflict in Syria; You mentioned before.. At first the revolution started out great. And now they just can’t change the regime. And Assad has almost the entirety of Syria back again, and practically nothing changed. What do you think about that?

Eyas: Well, I don’t know. Because if you want to look to the big game, let’s say not just Syria. All the big countries who are now also playing a part in Syria. If that was the plan, they succeeded. Because Syria before that no dept. No dept for EU, not for Russia, not for America. It was like a dept-free country. And now, Syria owns Russia millions of dollars because of the weapons and the military support. And of course, they’re going to pay that back. How? Using the oil and the gas we had. So, If you look to that perspective, now its not a peoples game, not a governments game; it’s like a bigger image that is happening.

Lieke: So it’s the powerful states. They use the conflict for their own gain?

Eyas: Yeah.

Lieke: And Turkey, of course, is now also involved. They have their own issues with the PKK. They’re also involved now. And the civilians, they are the main casualties of that?

Eyas: Yes, of course. Like in every war there is casualties. But the moment you know, you have this mindset in your brain, this is what’s going to happen. You know, there’s going to be dead people. It’s bad, but it’s war.

Lieke: But it’s.. The clean definition of war is the military against the military. But here..

Eyas: Yes, but like what was the last war that happened. It was Iraq, and since then America knew that ‘I don’t need my military to fight’.

Claudia: It is a bit of a war by proxy.

Eyas: Yes.

Lieke: But it wasn’t only the US, because of course they bombed civilians, and Russia did as well. But it was also the different parties fighting in Syria. They all did horrible stuff. What do you think about that. Of course, human rights abuses that have been there on all sides?

Eyas: Yeah, it’s… When I say Syria.. human rights words don’t exist there. From all sides. If like, for example, if you are controlling your home, for example, and I come in and I see your dog and I want to punish you, I will kill your dog. I don’t want to harm you, but I will harm something so that you are hurt. But the moment you come to my place, you see my cat for example and you kill my cat. And this is how the big game starts. This is like.. There is no human rights now. Of course there is the organisations that support there, but we see all these donations and stuff but.. I donate 5 euros but I don’t know where these 5 euros are going. I say, ‘oh for me I’m supporting them’. But where really is this 5 euros going? We don’t know.

Claudia: So you don’t see actually any benefit from all these human rights organisations?

Eyas: You see it on the borders, for example. Let’s say, if I donate 10K, the people on the borders will get 1K. and the 9 will be lost during the way between dealers and stuff. So, also the transparency for example of the donations; where it’s going, I don’t know. But because you feel like, ‘oke I’m doing some good deed’, I don’t think to much about that. I’ll just donating for, to help my people’s support.

Lieke: And you said, there are basically no human rights in Syria right now, did that start… Did it become this worse during the civil war, or was it like this already?

Eyas: It’s been there, but there was no media to cover is. Like, in 19… I don’t remember the year.

Lieke: From 1963 onwards, there was the state of emergency, so there was like no freedom at all. And they could just arrest people…

Eyas: Yes. Yeah, it was 1963. So, there was this emergency. So, if you.. If they suspect that you’re dangerous to the country. You’ll just disappear. Of course you will go to jail, but if you have money of course you pay. It’s because, it’s corrupted.

Lieke: There was no fair trial.

Eyas: No, there was some. It was not... But the whole story back then, I wasn’t alive. So there’s no stories about them. But what I heard are stories like, if you have money, you can know where your son is. If you have money you can bribe the jail.

Lieke: So that was the line you were talking about. If you speak up that’s what’s going to happen to you?

Eyas: Yes. And some will.. For example, we have like.. We say this is a joke if I start my own company, we have ‘Eyas’ company and his sons’ for example. But if one of my sons is in jail, it will be ‘Eyas’ company and his sons, except Mo’ in the branding. Because they say, ‘oh his sons’, but Mo is in jail. So people start talking about it a lot. So they put it in the branding itself ‘except Mo’. To make sure that he does not belong to the company. It is kind of a joke, humor we used to make. But yeah…

Claudia: And I guess that this sort op topics aren’t really talked about in history class in school? Can you talk about this freely?

Eyas: Yeah, so we have one… We talk about in school, I don’t know how you call it in English. It’s the Ba’ath. It started from Iraq and Syria, it’s called the Ba’ath.

Lieke: Oh the Ba’ath party.

Eyas: Yes, the Ba’ath party. And then they start you know. I don’t know if your familiar with the history in Syria, but when the Ba’ath party took over… Because there was too much changes in the country itself. Because every three months there was an occupation happening. So, when the Ba’ath takes over, Iraq and Syria have the same ideology now. That’s why from the start, the ideology about it, that everything happens.. It should be like one country. Since then, if you are with this party, they start.. how you say it. Not hire, like the moment you are in the seventh grade, you need to go to this party, to your school. You have to be in it.

Lieke: It’s like mandatory to be part of it.

Eyas: Yes. Join, yeah. You have to join this party. Because, this is the only party we have. And they say, no we have plenty of parties. But they have no voices. Cause he is the controlling party you know. And one of the benefits they told us, they say you finish your school, you finish university, you apply for jobs, your job, they’ll say ‘oh he’s a Ba’ath, he is from this party’. You will be hired. If you’re.. Like, if it’s just you and me for example and you are just normal citizen, you’re not Ba’ath and I am Ba’ath, I would be hired. Because I’m real loyal to the government. But if you’re seventh grade and you’re already Ba’ath, you don’t know, what is that supposed to mean.

Lieke: So, was there like an option to not join? Or were you just excluded from everything?

Eyas: The moment you would not join, people would say like ‘hmm why you’re not joining?’ Then it would be eyes open on you. Why, you know. If you are seventh grade and you didn’t want to join, who is your dad? And then it starts.

Lieke: So it was also for safety that you just had to join?

Eyas: Yes.

Claudia: Where there also people who didn’t join?

Eyas: I don’t know. No, most of the people joined. And if they didn’t they don’t speak up. Because like, the moment you say I don’t want to join, they start asking why. And then you say.. They will look to your family history and they’ll say hm that’s why. Because your grandfather in 1963 was against the government or something.

Claudia: and I also assume that the press, like the media doesn’t really speak up about it? The Syrian media, is it all controlled by the government?

Eyas: No, if you just open now.. Like during the [unclear] years, if you just opened the national tv, the government tv, it’s peaceful. In the cities they have complaints of course, but they say we’re going to fix it and nothing happens you know. Like, it’s always peace. And the moment the government takes over an area, it’s going to be a headline. But the moment they’re losing it it’s not in the headline. So it’s always like everything’s okay, it’s like being brainwashed, you know. Syria is at peace, don’t worry, and some people believe that, some people don’t believe that. That’s why you have to look at every single channel of every aspect of the news. Then do you know the truth.

Claudia: And can you access other news sites, like the BBC or CNN, can you do that from Syria?

Eyas: Yeah, yeah. Of course, like my dad used to watch CNN. I remember when it was 9/11 we were just watching CNN in the morning. And then you see this like ‘boom’ and for us, CNN was also to improve our English, it was CNN just to listen, to have this in our ear, the English. So yeah, CNN, BBC, we had access to it. But not everybody would understand English back then.

Lieke: And newspapers, was that all state propaganda? There was like no freedom of press?

Eyas: Yes. No, I heard stories about somebody who would write something about the government and then the newspaper would be shut down and the reporter’s gone.

Claudia: They just disappeared?

Eyas: Gone, yes. But, if you do this, you know this is going to happen. And because some people say yeah, we’ll do it again you know. It always starts like this. It starts small, people will disappear, but then at some point too much people start to disappear, so people become more aware. So you cannot hide this anymore. That’s were sometimes the conflict also starts. The moment when the conflict starts, people ask like ‘hey we want our prisoners free. And then says the government oke, take them, but they release ISIS people, for example. They say oke you want these people, take them. So they’ll release all the murders, all the …

Lieke: They just release all genuinely bad people as well.

Eyas: Yes, you want everybody, take them. But the political prisoners, they stay in.

Lieke: Because it was like in 2000 when Bashar took over, he started out with freeing some political prisoners right? But then after a while he like rearrested them or… what happened?

Eyas: I don’t know. But you know, so he had like three, two sons and two daughters, I don’t know, but every time he had he son, he would just release everybody from prison. Cause it was something happy.

Lieke: Like a celebration.

Eyas: As a gift. Yeah. So, yeah, this is what he used to do. But like, who is going out? We don’t know. But all the people will go out. When its Ramadan there is also people, cause it’s like, they need to celebrate now.

Claudia: And would you say that there are free elections, or.. how.. Do elections even happen in Syria?

Eyas: Elections?

Claudia: Yeah, do you vote for a party, do you...

Eyas: So, there’s only one party. There’s, no parties in Syria, there’s just the Ba’ath party.

Claudia: There is never any election happening? Like for mayors and stuff?

Eyas: That’s small scale, but everybody is Ba’ath. So, if you go for the mayor as non [unclear] you need to be Ba’ath, if you want to become a governor you need to be Ba’ath, if you want to be employee you need to be Ba’ath, so there’s one party who’s taking over Syria. So the elections was a little… You just go and vote for the same people every time, you know. Of course, if you are like independent, but then you have to be rich, a lot. To be independent, you need to have a lot of money. And people in your back, from the party.

Lieke: So was it that in rural areas they just had no choice but to be Ba’ath or was it because they actually benefitted from the party?

Eyas: It gives you benefits, the party. That’s not a lie, but still. There’s no other option. What are you going to do? Start your own party? Good luck with that you know.

Claudia: And do people still show up to vote? If you only have one party to vote for?

Eyas: Yes. Because they say, ‘oke let’s vote’. But we now deep inside our vote is useless. But to be a democracy you need to go and vote.

Lieke: Yeah, just to put on a show of democracy?

Eyas: Yes. Just like the present elections. You don’t need to go and do that, because you know who is going to win. They say, last time, they say like 96% percent voted yes for him. But that was 7 years ago. But like where are these people against the government. Only 4% of the people against the government? Come on.. Like, I’m not stupid, you know. If you say 55 I will believe you. Like, this is the media again, you know. If you say 65% of people vote yes, I will believe that. But they don’t want to make the ‘no’ word or the people who vote no bigger. Because these 4% of people who vote no, who are these. It’s becoming more and more, they say 96 says yes.

Claudia: When it comes to generations, are older people more supportive of the government?

Eyas: Yeah, so if you look to 19... Like my grandpa and grandma. They grew up with the government. They grew up with that. And of course they passed this to us. But like, if you go back to Syria now, it’s not going to be the same. Some people, some kids now changed mindsets. Some people are against the government, they hate it. You see these kids shouting about the government and the president. And how much hate they have inside. But these are just kids. It’s been projected by the parents. So that’s also not healthy for the kids.

Lieke: Because, before Bashar, when his father was still president, I believe that then like food prizes and everything was kept low artificially. You said that the generation of your grandparents, they were generally supportive of the government, were living conditions better then?

Eyas: So, yeah. So, my generation, when I grew up, everything was supported by the government. Education was for free, the bread was supported by the government, instead of paying let’s say 1 euro for the gallon of this, you payed 25 cents. But it was because it’s coming from the government, you know. But the moment the conflict starts the people will start like business with the [unclear] like buying things from the government but for like 50 cents for example. The government would sell it you know, it’s corruption again. Cause we are corrupted, so they would sell it for 50 cents a gallon, they would sell it to the people for 1, you know. So it’s like easy to corrupt. Back then, easy you know. Every Arab country is corrupted. Just wait for it and it shows in the media.

Lieke: So, do you think that that also played a part in the start of the revolution? So, was it like only that they felt they wanted more freedom, or was it also because in general, living conditions were getting worse?

Eyas: So, yeah. So, in general there is some.. There was some fucked up people like living, lifestyle-wise. There is no electricity, there’s no roads, there’s no water to them, but because, now you will hear different stories from Syrian people you know, but if you will come to the people yourself, you will see it. Interesting example; Damascus, or Aleppo, the big cities. If for example the government cannot build these streets, it will be supported immediately. With water, gas lines. But if you just started building new homes by yourself and then you come like ‘hey, we need electricity’ it’s not going to happen you know. Because people start… Again the corruption, from the government side. I’ll start building my apartment now, and the moment a player from the government comes in, I will pay him and he will shut up and he’ll leave. And this whole building starts building until you have a neighbourhood. And this neighbourhood has no electricity and you say ‘hey we need electricity’ but you start with your own networks you now. And you go and need the government to support you. And it will support you, but you also need to be patient about it. But from this scene, people start using these people for their needs. You know, you have no electricity, you are hungry, you are cold. What are you going to do about it, let’s change it you know, let’s start a revolution. But they say, how are we going to change it? So they play also mind games to the people itself. So they play on emotions also. But yeah, it was bad. There was some people who had really, like bad lifestyles you know.

Claudia: So would you say that the revolution was inevitable? Was it always going to end up like this?

Eyas: We don’t know. I don’t know. Because you can’t… Because you are here now. If the revolution starts and let’s say succeeded in 1 year.. You never know what’s going to happen. Cause, there is no answer for that.

Lieke: And do you think that at first the revolution had some support from civilians? You mentioned that one day they started taking up arms and fighting each other and that support went away, but maybe if that wouldn’t have happened, do you think then the revolution would have succeeded or the people would have kept supporting them?

Eyas: Yes, there would be a lot of changes. Because, you know its corrupted, but nobody can speak up for it. But when people started speaking up for it, like, of course there would be casualties, but for the good. For the long good run and the future, you would say ‘oke, that’s worth it’. But the moment the blood in the streets and like thousands of people are dead in 7 years and there’s still… Bashar rules the country; what kind of revolution is that? It’s bad, for the country itself, for the people.

Lieke: And of course like the Ba’ath party, they started supressing the Sunni majority, because that’s like the majority in Syria right?

Eyas: We are 90 or 80% Sunni. So they cannot… It’s a bit tricky now, because like the Allawi who control the government, because also they are Ba’ath. You know, that is how it starts, because they are a minority, but like the majority are Sunna. But because you’ve been brainwashed during all these years about the Ba’ath and all these stuff, there was no difference between Sunni, Shia, Allawi, Christian, Jews. There was not such a thing in our community back then. Until the revolution started, people started using this vocabulary.

Lieke: Yeah, because now, at least the impression I got, is that all the different parties fighting each other, it’s all divided by religious lines?

Eyas: No, now what is fighting is Sunna against Sunna. That’s the fucked up part also, like why.. And of course they get supported also by Hezbollah, for example, or from Turkey. They’ve been supported. But again, the do not send soldiers, they just give weapons and supplies and then’ oke, they’ll kill each other now’. But like, yeah, you see it in the neighbourhood itself. There was in Hommes, there was a checkpoint. In the same family there was one brother on the side of the revolution and one on the side of the army. And they had to stay in the same checkpoint, against each other. Brother and brother. And then both leaders say oke start shooting. You’re going to start shooting, you know. So he killed his own brother. Because of that. So, this is how, like small stories like this were shared. And you see a lot, in the first year, people start becoming aware of that. So you see a lot regions were soldiers start like, oke I’m not going to shoot you, you are my brother, you know. So you see the soldiers coming out and also the rebels coming out and they started hugging. But after that these two people had been killed. By who? We don’t know. They also don’t want to share that like, ‘hey we are also brothers, let’s not kill each other’. Both people be dead, from both sides, so…

Lieke: And I take it that stories like that didn’t appear in the media of course?

Eyas: No, but that’s the thing, they don’t show you that here. But I can show you right now on youtube. I can just type it in Arabic and then you’ll see it. And like, they always know, the government says this, like.. If the government takes over the area and there’s armed people in it. If they deliver their weapons, the government can forgive them, you know. Say ‘oke, you carry a weapon. If you don’t kill anybody, you go free’. So to encourage the peace again, this is how the government starts. They take over an area, they’re surrounding it and they say like oke, you have 15 days to give your weapons. If you’re free, we will send the busses with all the civilians in it. If you want to stay and fight, stay and fight.

Claudia: And do you think this has helped to bring more peace?

Eyas: Yeah, yeah. You see in, especially in Aleppo, like in the West side, or East side, East side, yeah. When the government starts taking over, they send busses. We call it the green busses, if you google it you will see it. So it’s like, they used to be the public transportation busses. Cause there’s no public transportations they use it to carry civilians from the rebel areas out to the safe zones. And they close it again. If you want to fight, we are just going to bomb this neighbourhood. And you’re dead. So they give options. Like the last things the government will do is start bombing when there are civilians in there. Of course there would be civilians because they don’t want to go, because they also have been kidnapped for example or have been hostages from their side, from the rebels. So if they start bombing, they are bombing civilians.

Claudia: And do you think there is any end in sight, for the conflict? Do you think the end is coming soon?

Eyas: No. Not now. I think it’s like more than 5 years, 10 years, even more?

Claudia: So even more than 5 years?

Eyas: Yeah.

Lieke: Because it was also, like, what you said; They gave the options. It was also for fighters the option to go to Idlib, right? And now they are all there.

Eyas: Yeah, now they are in Idlib now. Yes, they are all in Idlib now. And you can see the.. It’s, the whole force is like.. It’s also like a strategic game, they played it. If you want to go to Idlib, go there. So they put them in one zone supported by Turkey. But then.. Now, all the focus is on Idlib. And now it’s been bombed and everything. So, Aleppo has been freed two weeks ago, so the airport started again working immediately. Sixteen February, when it has become free. And next date the airport is working, so you can see immediately, everything goes back to normal. And like, the airport was off for seven years, because it was controlled by the rebels.

Claudia: Was that the only airport?

Eyas: In Aleppo? Yeah. And like really international, so, everything would come from Europe, would land in Aleppo and then for example go to Asia. It’s always been like this, to Aleppo city.

Lieke: Because Aleppo and Damascus were economic relevant areas right. They were both just.. had their own thing?

Eyas: Yes. So there was.. Like, we said we are the capital. Aleppo is the economy capital of Syria and just like the Hague, the big cities, and Amsterdam.

Lieke/Claudia: I think we’re done eright?

Eyas: Did I answer all your questions?

Lieke: Yes, I think so.

Claudia: Yes, it was a very pleasant conversation, very detailed.

Emma: Can I have one final question?

Eyas: Yes.

Emma: Now that the airport is open again, are you considering..

Eyas: No. I’m not. No. Because even if I’m Dutch, for example.. But in Syrian law, in our constitution it says that you can have your Syrian nationality, plus another nationality. So if I’m Dutch now, I can still be Syrian. And that is also why the Dutch people or the Dutch government cannot take my nationality, just like the Palestinians for example. That’s why, if I go back to Syria, they say but ‘no you are Syrian’. You’re not Dutch now. So now you are.. Where have you been? For seven years, you know. So, for now? I don’t think so. And not even in five years, six years. Even if I’m Dutch.

Claudia: And even if the conflict ended and it was peaceful again?

Eyas: It’s not going to be same. People change. I’m changed. So it’s never going to be the same thing.

Lieke: We have just a small thank you gift, I’ll just grab it.

Eyas: Thank you. It’s tea?

Lieke: Yes, it is. So thank you again for willing to do the podcast.

Claudia/Emma: Yes, thank you for your time.

Eyas: Yes, it’s my pleasure, for me like, I want people to become aware of that you know. And like Amnesty, I’ve been supporting it for two years now already. I’ve been standing [unclear] outside, say, you know ‘what is that’. If you have a key.. you know, this mindset, if you… Every week, every month, I get this new shot for their newspaper, so that’s nice. So yeah, thank you for that. Thank you for listening.

Lieke: Yeah of course, it was very interesting.

Eyas: My pleasure. It’s just again.. you will hear different stories from different people. I’m not saying that I’m.. My own words will not be everything. Every people will have different opinion.

Lieke: No of course, but it’s like you said that those different stories together..

Eyas: Yes, so you need to collect all the stories of all parties.

Claudia: To really understand.

Eyas: And you need to be open minded also. The moment.. If somebody.. If you have for example a crush on somebody from the rebels. You’ll think now ‘oh they’re the true ones you know’. So you need to put your emotions aside and see the big picture. So, everybody is saying the truth. But it’s not the truth.

Lieke: It’s their version of the truth.

Claudia: Their version of events.

Eyas: Yes.

Emma: Alright, that’s a good end for the podcast.