HUMAN RIGHTS TODAY: The Podcast series - Episode 1 Syria
- AISU Editorial
- 6 mei 2020
- 30 minuten om te lezen
Bijgewerkt op: 21 okt 2020

As the Editorial Committee of AISU we are busy generating (media) attention for various human rights abuses in this world. One way to do so, is to give the people who lived through them a voice. That is exactly what we are doing with our series of podcasts!
In the first episode we discussed the ongoing conflict in Syria with Eyas. Eyas, who grew up in Aleppo, has fled to Lebanon and later the Netherlands to escape the violence in his home country.
Below you will find the full transcript of this episode. The podcast itself can be found on Soundcloud or by using the link posted on our socials and this transcript.
Claudia: So hello everybody. We, here at Amnesty International Utrecht, are going to be starting our podcast series in which we talk about topics which relate to human rights. And our first guest today is Eyas, Eyas thank you for joining us.
Eyas: Thank you so much.
Lieke: So, Iāll introduce you a bit more. Because of course you are originally from Syria. And I believe that after that you left to Lebanon, and now youāre here in the Netherlands. Today we are going to talk about the conflict in Syria. So first we would like to ask if you are comfortable with it if you could tell us something about how was your live in Syria, what was it like, and why did you leave?
Eyas: Yes, I think during the lecture I gave for the VU, I taught 3 months ago or something, I talked about it freely back then so...
Lieke: Well, feel free to share, we love to hear.
Eyas: Well, where do we start. I donāt know, do you have questions?
Claudia: So, you said that youāre originally from Aleppo. And how was live back there before the conflict started?
Eyas: I was 18 or 17 when the conflict started. So, if youāre like teenager back in Syria, you are not aware about what are political issues back then. Because youāre just teenager. Your busy with school, with friends having fun. You know. But also at that early stage when the conflict started, you become more aware of whatās happening. Then, I started to become more open about it. All these questions, all these different stories. Who do you need to believe. What fight you need to believe. Why do you need to believe this part, or why do you need to believe that part. So all this stuff would help you to adjust your mindset about how you see stuff.
Claudia: So was it something that happened with all teenagers. Like, did they al become more invested in learning about politics, or did some still not care that much?
Eyas: well, politics, the subject itself in Syria is a little bit.. Not everybody can speak about it you know. Itās like there is a line, I think I mentioned that before. There is a line in Syria, that, if you cross it, of course youāll be punished by the government somehow. But if you donāt cross it youāll just life your life freely as normal citizens. You have your rights; you get your rights. But the moment you cross that line there are consequences.
Lieke: So, growing up in Syria, it was not that you felt like you couldnāt live your life freely?
Eyas: You can life your live freely, but there are boundaries. But then you just adjust your lifestyle with these boundaries.
Claudia: And even before the conflict started, these boundaries I guess where there?
Eyas: Yeah, of course. Itās like every structure and every government, you know. Especially in the Middle East, or Arab countries, everything.. I think all leaders follow the same ideology somehow, you know. Like, donāt abort [unclear] me, donāt give your opinion. Itās simple, you know. If you live your life freely? Yeah. You have your rights, you have everything you know.
Lieke: And for you, what changed that you said, well now I canāt live my life freely anymore, and made you want to leave?
Eyas: Well, we left Syria because of.. Like I have two brothers, so we have three guys in the family. And back then, when you are 18, and my brother is like 22 like then. So, this is the age where you need to go to the military if you finish university. And my dad took the decision āoke, I donāt want to fight, I donāt want that blood on your hands, so weāre going to fleeā. Like, there is, when you compare it, always the bad and the worse, you take the less.
Claudia: The lesser evil.
Eyas: The less evil way. The decisions you make, you take the less painful way or the less harm.
Lieke: So it wasnāt really a politically motivated decision? Like, for example when you strongly identify with one side of the conflict. That wasnāt really the case, in your decision to leave.
Eyas: It was.. So, it was back in Aleppo, when it sparked.. It took one year to complete, to reach Aleppo. So weāre just observing what is happening in all the cities in Syria, you know. Because it started in South en then moved up to North. That took a year. So we observed what is happening. What kind of behaviours that people are doing. So, we become more aware of that. You know, we see āoke, now its starting in the country side of Aleppoā. You start seeing different people in the cities. Then you see āoke, there is something weird happeningā. Then you hear stories about people being kidnapped for the money, people disappeared for the money. And that is not a government issue, but people just become gangster somehow. They need money, you know. So, to prevent being called the army or being kidnaped, we said āoke, we just leave nowā.
Lieke: and when you left, you went to Lebanon right? And how was that situation? Because from then you were a ārefugeeā. How was it organized?
Eyas: in the borders, before you go to Lebanon, they will ask you ādo you have a hotel booking, or do you have somebody inside, do you have money to go?ā Of course we knew, we asked.. We had before we came to Lebanon. So, we said āyeah we have everything ready. This is our hotel, this is our residence, this is our reference, if you want to call them, call themā. So oke, you go in. Of course we lived in a hotel for like 2 weeks. Until we found an apartment to rent. And then we just started working, just like I did here you know. The moment you start a new life technically, you need to start from zero, you need to start finding a job. From there you can just build up your future again.
Claudia: And how was life in Lebanon? Did people treat you differently because they knew you were from Syria?
Eyas: yes and no at the same time. Because I donāt know if youāre familiar.. But in Lebanon every structure in the country belongs to religious parties. So, thereās Beirut for Sunna and there is South for Shia and there is the mountains for Druze. We lived in the mountains and these people.. They are so closed a community somehow. They protect themselves. They donāt care about whatās happening in Lebanon in general, but they follow their leadership; what they say. So, if you just behave like normal human beings, of course you feel welcome, you know. Donāt do any bad stuff. But of course, we were just in this closed community. But youāll feel the difference if you go in the weekend to Beirut for example, city centre of course. They will look at you āhey I hear different dialectā. So he is Syrian, you know. But from different kind of people, not just like the government or.. But, like, the moment you up to the mountains.. It just, you find this switch when you go up and down.
Lieke: So, its mainly just the people in Lebanon themselves that see of course..
Eyas: Yes, they have different opinions. Some people see Syrians.. āthey took their jobsā, for example. And some said āyeah but they are helping our economy nowā.
Lieke: Itās the same old discussion with when refugees come in; do you welcome them or..
Eyas: Yeah, same with the Dutch people over here. They took our jobs.. Itās, everything is like history is repeating itself somehow. You know, like every community has the same mindsets technically. Its just how we build up our culture, I think.
Claudia: For how long did you stay in Lebanon?
Eyas: I think for 3 years, 2.5.
Claudia: And what made you want to move from there?
Eyas: The routine, the boring lifestyle technically. And of course the safety. It wasnāt because.. Like then, you had to pay for.. Like every year you had to pay 800 dollars. I donāt remember the number, like 800 or 200. Just fees to the government to stay for 1 year, you know. But back then, 200 dollars wasnāt easy to make, you know.
Claudia: But then was 200 dollars mandatory for everybody or was it just for Syrian refugees?
Eyas: For Syrians, refugees, to stay in Lebanon. Like as a permanent staying, but they do it every year. To stay. So we have legal papers, as citizens.
Lieke: And you also mentioned safety. Did it get less safe to stay in Lebanon?
Eyas: So, if you look to the last year. Whatās happening in Lebanon, al these revolutions and stuff. People would start sensing it before that. You feel the tension between the people there. Between the leaders, the parties. You feel the tension. So, we said we donāt need any conflict again. So, people.. And this.. Like, people start coming to Europe, so the hype starts more louder. So āoke, letās see whatās happening in Europeā. So my dad did his homework. He found out, āoke there is Germany or the Netherlandsā and we picked Netherlands to come.
Lieke: And was it also because, there is so many different parties fighting in Syria, but one of the parties I believe is Hezbollah, which is Lebanese. Was that also something that played a part in how you were received in Lebanon?
Eyas: Yeah, so itās.. If you go to... The Shia, or Hezbollah was controlling the South of Lebanon. But also part of Beirut, you know. So, were we live in the mountains, they had in the ā70s or 2000, they had kind of like civil war between them. So, we were against Hezbollah somehow, but we are.. Because we get that from the community we lived for 2,5 years. We heard a lot of stories from them. But when we moved⦠Because Hezbollah and Syria are allies. Because when you live in Syria, you say āoh well, Hezbollah is defending Lebanonā. But when you live inside, you say ābut theyāre doing a lot of bad stuff also insideā. So, different stories you hear, but you donāt need to know.. You need to not trust al these stories you know. You just need to listen and observe and then reflect on how youāre going to do it. What kind of [unclear] you want to get. Because everybody put spices on the stories you know, so not every story is true.
Lieke: Yes, of course they all have their own versions.
Eyas: Yeah, of course. And for their own benefits. So, if you want to look to Hezbollah when I was in Syria, I was like āoh they are good friends to us, our allies, weāre supporting them, theyāre supporting us, weāre friendsā. When you move to Lebanon you say āhmm theyāre doing some bad stuff for this communityā. Now you see how theyāre dealing with different people in Lebanon. You say āhmm theyāre not good, but theyāre not bad at the same timeā. Because they also have this mentality of defending Lebanon form Israel or from Americans.
Lieke: But, you mentioned from when you were in Syria you saw Hezbollah as ātheyāre defending usā, I take it you werenāt that you werenāt too happy about the revolution starting in the South?
Eyas: Thatās the point, like every Syrian.. If youāre not⦠Talk about the different people now with their [unclear]. Every Syrian would have different story. And, none of us have the true story. Cause itās based on our personal.. you know? For us, it depends on from who you receive the harm or the damage. Thatās when you switch sides. Both sides are bad. Both sides are worse than others. But thereās again.. Thereās, one is better than the other, you know. We have a saying in Arabic [Arabic saying]. That is āto close your eyes is better than becoming blindā. So always there is worse, and then there is āslechterā [Dutch].
Lieke: Even worse.
Eyas: Yes, Thereās even worse.
Lieke: Cause before the revolution, well you mentioned your life was.. You can live your life freely and then the revolution started and for you personally it became worse after that?
Eyas: Yeah. Of course, because back, letās say from 2000 until 2011, when Bashar [Al-Assad] took over, people said āyeah he took it from his fatherā. All this bullshit they talk about, but this is just how, back in the Middle East, this is how everything works. The son and the dad gives it to his son. You know, this is how it works. Is it democracy? No. But this is how it works, you cannot stop it. People donāt have power to change it. And if youāre going to change it, itās going to be hard. It will just take too much time. And the revolution started correct. They want to change the regime. Of course, there was corruption, there was all this bad stuff. The first six months was perfect. They wanted change. Until defence started showing up and we saw the blood on the streets. From the moment there was blood on the streets, you know, it was not a revolution anymore. From both sides.
Lieke: Then it was just a civil war, basically.
Eyas: Yes. Then you say āthis is not goodā. Cause now, you can see everything doubled; the prices, economy wise. Supply chains for the Syrian subareas [unclear], went up. They start hiding materials, to wait and see the prices go up, so they can sell it again to people. So, itās just fucked up back then.
Claudia: And what would you say about the media coverage in Europe of the conflict there. Do you think its accurate? Do you think itās a bit biased?
Eyas: The Dutch news.. When I see the news back in⦠Like, now and when I saw the news in Syria, itās completely different. They show you like, say 40 or 30% of the truth of whatās happening. Cause they also.. What I believe, they want to make the people afraid of whatās happening there. They donāt show the full story. The moment you see the full story you say āhmm itās not that badā, you know. But they always keep the fear between the Dutch people, or Europe letās say, from whatās happening there. This is how also they control people, by fear.
Claudia: So youād say that they portray it as worse then it is in reality?
Eyas: Yeah, you can.. Just see it, like⦠I donāt know, if you watch also news about the Corona-virus, like China saying oh we have thousands of people⦠But thereās like ten thousand people already.. You just have to ask people from China like, āhey whatās going on thereā? And theyād just give you everything.
Lieke: So, the news media, itās also for the benefit of Europe basically?
Eyas: Of course.
Claudia: And how would you say that, people from Syria were treated in the Netherlands for instance? Because throughout Europe you hear all these stories about racism and people being annoyed that immigrants are coming. To take their jobs, coming from a different culture and that sort of things. Would you say itās true, or is it.. The pictures in the media, is it the same for you?
Eyas: You can sense sometimes from different people that theyāre racist. But not because Iām Syrian, itās just because Iām an outsider. They would be racist if you are dark skin, if you are Chinese; If you are an outsider and you are living in a ābuurtā [Dutch: neighbourhood] outside, letās say, not Amsterdam, different village. They would say, āokay who is this guyā. āWhy is he hereā, you know. The first thing they would ask you is āwhere are you fromā. And then, oke, then they know. Then they say oke.. The first thing is like āhi, how are you, were are you from?ā. And then.. Now if you ask me I say Amsterdam. Because Iāve been living here for five years already and I can speak a little bit Dutch. So I reply that to the Dutch. But then they say like, āoke, but where you from originallyā. I donāt care.. You donāt need this information. Now Iām here. Iām here now. That is what you want to know.
Lieke: Because you mentioned in the guest lecture that you donāt want to be āEyas the refugeeā anymore, because you feel like thatās what people here define you by?
Eyas: Yeah, so the moment you come in, the give you the ID and say like āasielzoekerā [Dutch: asylum seeker] and they start and go like āasielā [Dutch: asylum]. This.. It starts at the beginning. Before, we didnāt know what āasielā means you know. Now we know what this means. And we say, āoke we need to change thatā. And then they change it to⦠Like if you get a house.
Lieke: Statushouder [Dutch: residence permit].
Eyas: Yeah, then weāre like, āoke, we also donāt like that oneā. So they call us newcomers. Everybody that comes to the city is a newcomer. You know, so we made it like.. itās expanded. If you come to study here, you are a newcomer. If you come here to work, as an expat, you are a newcomer. So, just to change the word refugee to newcomer. And that would also help the Syrians who are also here. Like now, Iām a refugee. I said that a lot. Like, āhi, Iām Eyas, Iām a refugeeā. No, youāre not. Shut up. Donāt say that.
Claudia: So do you think itās better now that you use newcomer, to a certain extend?
Eyas: That was for like, 3 years ago or something. The moment I registered myself in the ākvkā [Dutch: Chamber of Commerce], now Iām Eyas the photographer. You know, the moment you stop getting money from the government, now youāre all by yourself. So Iām by myself now, done.
Claudia: And would you say that there is a community of people from Syria in the Netherlands, or within Amsterdam that you have connected with?
Eyas: Yeah, so it also depends on the people. I know Syrians, they just come here and they are taking money from the government and they just smoke some weed and sit home. They do nothing, you know. They finish their exams from like the āinburgeringā [Dutch: civic integration] and then theyāre just like āthis my lifeā. Theyāre happy with that, nothing wrong with that. If youāre happy, do it. But, for me, the moment I came to the Netherlands, I spend like a month doing nothing. And I said no, I need to do something I cannot just stand still. So I bought my camera and started learning. Everything by myself. I went to meet ups, just to give my business card and say āhey Iām a photographerā. I had no idea about what a photographer was you know. I just go there. If I look at those pictures now, I laugh at myself because of that. And how they took those pictures, I donāt know. And they payed me for it. So oke, beautiful. So you just need to have the drive within you to do that.
Claudia: Have you always thought that you would be a photographer, or did you have a passion for photography?
Eyas: Yeah, I had done it before. Back in Syria I had this small film camera. I took photos. It was from my uncle. Yeah, I would steal it from his workshop, take it out, take pictures, put it back again. And then he would say, āhey Eyas, did you take my cameraā. Because of course itās film, itās not digital. So he knew about it. So yeah, this is how it started. Then I come and here and, you know, thereās new language, new culture, you need to find something to do, you love to do, to fit in the society. And then people would just take it from there. Just, the ball starts rolling, it kind of becomes bigger and bigger and bigger.
Lieke: And back to like the conflict in Syria; You mentioned before.. At first the revolution started out great. And now they just canāt change the regime. And Assad has almost the entirety of Syria back again, and practically nothing changed. What do you think about that?
Eyas: Well, I donāt know. Because if you want to look to the big game, letās say not just Syria. All the big countries who are now also playing a part in Syria. If that was the plan, they succeeded. Because Syria before that no dept. No dept for EU, not for Russia, not for America. It was like a dept-free country. And now, Syria owns Russia millions of dollars because of the weapons and the military support. And of course, theyāre going to pay that back. How? Using the oil and the gas we had. So, If you look to that perspective, now its not a peoples game, not a governments game; itās like a bigger image that is happening.
Lieke: So itās the powerful states. They use the conflict for their own gain?
Eyas: Yeah.
Lieke: And Turkey, of course, is now also involved. They have their own issues with the PKK. Theyāre also involved now. And the civilians, they are the main casualties of that?
Eyas: Yes, of course. Like in every war there is casualties. But the moment you know, you have this mindset in your brain, this is whatās going to happen. You know, thereās going to be dead people. Itās bad, but itās war.
Lieke: But itās.. The clean definition of war is the military against the military. But here..
Eyas: Yes, but like what was the last war that happened. It was Iraq, and since then America knew that āI donāt need my military to fightā.
Claudia: It is a bit of a war by proxy.
Eyas: Yes.
Lieke: But it wasnāt only the US, because of course they bombed civilians, and Russia did as well. But it was also the different parties fighting in Syria. They all did horrible stuff. What do you think about that. Of course, human rights abuses that have been there on all sides?
Eyas: Yeah, itās⦠When I say Syria.. human rights words donāt exist there. From all sides. If like, for example, if you are controlling your home, for example, and I come in and I see your dog and I want to punish you, I will kill your dog. I donāt want to harm you, but I will harm something so that you are hurt. But the moment you come to my place, you see my cat for example and you kill my cat. And this is how the big game starts. This is like.. There is no human rights now. Of course there is the organisations that support there, but we see all these donations and stuff but.. I donate 5 euros but I donāt know where these 5 euros are going. I say, āoh for me Iām supporting themā. But where really is this 5 euros going? We donāt know.
Claudia: So you donāt see actually any benefit from all these human rights organisations?
Eyas: You see it on the borders, for example. Letās say, if I donate 10K, the people on the borders will get 1K. and the 9 will be lost during the way between dealers and stuff. So, also the transparency for example of the donations; where itās going, I donāt know. But because you feel like, āoke Iām doing some good deedā, I donāt think to much about that. Iāll just donating for, to help my peopleās support.
Lieke: And you said, there are basically no human rights in Syria right now, did that start⦠Did it become this worse during the civil war, or was it like this already?
Eyas: Itās been there, but there was no media to cover is. Like, in 19⦠I donāt remember the year.
Lieke: From 1963 onwards, there was the state of emergency, so there was like no freedom at all. And they could just arrest peopleā¦
Eyas: Yes. Yeah, it was 1963. So, there was this emergency. So, if you.. If they suspect that youāre dangerous to the country. Youāll just disappear. Of course you will go to jail, but if you have money of course you pay. Itās because, itās corrupted.
Lieke: There was no fair trial.
Eyas: No, there was some. It was not... But the whole story back then, I wasnāt alive. So thereās no stories about them. But what I heard are stories like, if you have money, you can know where your son is. If you have money you can bribe the jail.
Lieke: So that was the line you were talking about. If you speak up thatās whatās going to happen to you?
Eyas: Yes. And some will.. For example, we have like.. We say this is a joke if I start my own company, we have āEyasā company and his sonsā for example. But if one of my sons is in jail, it will be āEyasā company and his sons, except Moā in the branding. Because they say, āoh his sonsā, but Mo is in jail. So people start talking about it a lot. So they put it in the branding itself āexcept Moā. To make sure that he does not belong to the company. It is kind of a joke, humor we used to make. But yeahā¦
Claudia: And I guess that this sort op topics arenāt really talked about in history class in school? Can you talk about this freely?
Eyas: Yeah, so we have one⦠We talk about in school, I donāt know how you call it in English. Itās the Baāath. It started from Iraq and Syria, itās called the Baāath.
Lieke: Oh the Baāath party.
Eyas: Yes, the Baāath party. And then they start you know. I donāt know if your familiar with the history in Syria, but when the Baāath party took over⦠Because there was too much changes in the country itself. Because every three months there was an occupation happening. So, when the Baāath takes over, Iraq and Syria have the same ideology now. Thatās why from the start, the ideology about it, that everything happens.. It should be like one country. Since then, if you are with this party, they start.. how you say it. Not hire, like the moment you are in the seventh grade, you need to go to this party, to your school. You have to be in it.
Lieke: Itās like mandatory to be part of it.
Eyas: Yes. Join, yeah. You have to join this party. Because, this is the only party we have. And they say, no we have plenty of parties. But they have no voices. Cause he is the controlling party you know. And one of the benefits they told us, they say you finish your school, you finish university, you apply for jobs, your job, theyāll say āoh heās a Baāath, he is from this partyā. You will be hired. If youāre.. Like, if itās just you and me for example and you are just normal citizen, youāre not Baāath and I am Baāath, I would be hired. Because Iām real loyal to the government. But if youāre seventh grade and youāre already Baāath, you donāt know, what is that supposed to mean.
Lieke: So, was there like an option to not join? Or were you just excluded from everything?
Eyas: The moment you would not join, people would say like āhmm why youāre not joining?ā Then it would be eyes open on you. Why, you know. If you are seventh grade and you didnāt want to join, who is your dad? And then it starts.
Lieke: So it was also for safety that you just had to join?
Eyas: Yes.
Claudia: Where there also people who didnāt join?
Eyas: I donāt know. No, most of the people joined. And if they didnāt they donāt speak up. Because like, the moment you say I donāt want to join, they start asking why. And then you say.. They will look to your family history and theyāll say hm thatās why. Because your grandfather in 1963 was against the government or something.
Claudia: and I also assume that the press, like the media doesnāt really speak up about it? The Syrian media, is it all controlled by the government?
Eyas: No, if you just open now.. Like during the [unclear] years, if you just opened the national tv, the government tv, itās peaceful. In the cities they have complaints of course, but they say weāre going to fix it and nothing happens you know. Like, itās always peace. And the moment the government takes over an area, itās going to be a headline. But the moment theyāre losing it itās not in the headline. So itās always like everythingās okay, itās like being brainwashed, you know. Syria is at peace, donāt worry, and some people believe that, some people donāt believe that. Thatās why you have to look at every single channel of every aspect of the news. Then do you know the truth.
Claudia: And can you access other news sites, like the BBC or CNN, can you do that from Syria?
Eyas: Yeah, yeah. Of course, like my dad used to watch CNN. I remember when it was 9/11 we were just watching CNN in the morning. And then you see this like āboomā and for us, CNN was also to improve our English, it was CNN just to listen, to have this in our ear, the English. So yeah, CNN, BBC, we had access to it. But not everybody would understand English back then.
Lieke: And newspapers, was that all state propaganda? There was like no freedom of press?
Eyas: Yes. No, I heard stories about somebody who would write something about the government and then the newspaper would be shut down and the reporterās gone.
Claudia: They just disappeared?
Eyas: Gone, yes. But, if you do this, you know this is going to happen. And because some people say yeah, weāll do it again you know. It always starts like this. It starts small, people will disappear, but then at some point too much people start to disappear, so people become more aware. So you cannot hide this anymore. Thatās were sometimes the conflict also starts. The moment when the conflict starts, people ask like āhey we want our prisoners free. And then says the government oke, take them, but they release ISIS people, for example. They say oke you want these people, take them. So theyāll release all the murders, all the ā¦
Lieke: They just release all genuinely bad people as well.
Eyas: Yes, you want everybody, take them. But the political prisoners, they stay in.
Lieke: Because it was like in 2000 when Bashar took over, he started out with freeing some political prisoners right? But then after a while he like rearrested them or⦠what happened?
Eyas: I donāt know. But you know, so he had like three, two sons and two daughters, I donāt know, but every time he had he son, he would just release everybody from prison. Cause it was something happy.
Lieke: Like a celebration.
Eyas: As a gift. Yeah. So, yeah, this is what he used to do. But like, who is going out? We donāt know. But all the people will go out. When its Ramadan there is also people, cause itās like, they need to celebrate now.
Claudia: And would you say that there are free elections, or.. how.. Do elections even happen in Syria?
Eyas: Elections?
Claudia: Yeah, do you vote for a party, do you...
Eyas: So, thereās only one party. Thereās, no parties in Syria, thereās just the Baāath party.
Claudia: There is never any election happening? Like for mayors and stuff?
Eyas: Thatās small scale, but everybody is Baāath. So, if you go for the mayor as non [unclear] you need to be Baāath, if you want to become a governor you need to be Baāath, if you want to be employee you need to be Baāath, so thereās one party whoās taking over Syria. So the elections was a little⦠You just go and vote for the same people every time, you know. Of course, if you are like independent, but then you have to be rich, a lot. To be independent, you need to have a lot of money. And people in your back, from the party.
Lieke: So was it that in rural areas they just had no choice but to be Baāath or was it because they actually benefitted from the party?
Eyas: It gives you benefits, the party. Thatās not a lie, but still. Thereās no other option. What are you going to do? Start your own party? Good luck with that you know.
Claudia: And do people still show up to vote? If you only have one party to vote for?
Eyas: Yes. Because they say, āoke letās voteā. But we now deep inside our vote is useless. But to be a democracy you need to go and vote.
Lieke: Yeah, just to put on a show of democracy?
Eyas: Yes. Just like the present elections. You donāt need to go and do that, because you know who is going to win. They say, last time, they say like 96% percent voted yes for him. But that was 7 years ago. But like where are these people against the government. Only 4% of the people against the government? Come on.. Like, Iām not stupid, you know. If you say 55 I will believe you. Like, this is the media again, you know. If you say 65% of people vote yes, I will believe that. But they donāt want to make the ānoā word or the people who vote no bigger. Because these 4% of people who vote no, who are these. Itās becoming more and more, they say 96 says yes.
Claudia: When it comes to generations, are older people more supportive of the government?
Eyas: Yeah, so if you look to 19... Like my grandpa and grandma. They grew up with the government. They grew up with that. And of course they passed this to us. But like, if you go back to Syria now, itās not going to be the same. Some people, some kids now changed mindsets. Some people are against the government, they hate it. You see these kids shouting about the government and the president. And how much hate they have inside. But these are just kids. Itās been projected by the parents. So thatās also not healthy for the kids.
Lieke: Because, before Bashar, when his father was still president, I believe that then like food prizes and everything was kept low artificially. You said that the generation of your grandparents, they were generally supportive of the government, were living conditions better then?
Eyas: So, yeah. So, my generation, when I grew up, everything was supported by the government. Education was for free, the bread was supported by the government, instead of paying letās say 1 euro for the gallon of this, you payed 25 cents. But it was because itās coming from the government, you know. But the moment the conflict starts the people will start like business with the [unclear] like buying things from the government but for like 50 cents for example. The government would sell it you know, itās corruption again. Cause we are corrupted, so they would sell it for 50 cents a gallon, they would sell it to the people for 1, you know. So itās like easy to corrupt. Back then, easy you know. Every Arab country is corrupted. Just wait for it and it shows in the media.
Lieke: So, do you think that that also played a part in the start of the revolution? So, was it like only that they felt they wanted more freedom, or was it also because in general, living conditions were getting worse?
Eyas: So, yeah. So, in general there is some.. There was some fucked up people like living, lifestyle-wise. There is no electricity, thereās no roads, thereās no water to them, but because, now you will hear different stories from Syrian people you know, but if you will come to the people yourself, you will see it. Interesting example; Damascus, or Aleppo, the big cities. If for example the government cannot build these streets, it will be supported immediately. With water, gas lines. But if you just started building new homes by yourself and then you come like āhey, we need electricityā itās not going to happen you know. Because people start⦠Again the corruption, from the government side. Iāll start building my apartment now, and the moment a player from the government comes in, I will pay him and he will shut up and heāll leave. And this whole building starts building until you have a neighbourhood. And this neighbourhood has no electricity and you say āhey we need electricityā but you start with your own networks you now. And you go and need the government to support you. And it will support you, but you also need to be patient about it. But from this scene, people start using these people for their needs. You know, you have no electricity, you are hungry, you are cold. What are you going to do about it, letās change it you know, letās start a revolution. But they say, how are we going to change it? So they play also mind games to the people itself. So they play on emotions also. But yeah, it was bad. There was some people who had really, like bad lifestyles you know.
Claudia: So would you say that the revolution was inevitable? Was it always going to end up like this?
Eyas: We donāt know. I donāt know. Because you canāt⦠Because you are here now. If the revolution starts and letās say succeeded in 1 year.. You never know whatās going to happen. Cause, there is no answer for that.
Lieke: And do you think that at first the revolution had some support from civilians? You mentioned that one day they started taking up arms and fighting each other and that support went away, but maybe if that wouldnāt have happened, do you think then the revolution would have succeeded or the people would have kept supporting them?
Eyas: Yes, there would be a lot of changes. Because, you know its corrupted, but nobody can speak up for it. But when people started speaking up for it, like, of course there would be casualties, but for the good. For the long good run and the future, you would say āoke, thatās worth itā. But the moment the blood in the streets and like thousands of people are dead in 7 years and thereās still⦠Bashar rules the country; what kind of revolution is that? Itās bad, for the country itself, for the people.
Lieke: And of course like the Baāath party, they started supressing the Sunni majority, because thatās like the majority in Syria right?
Eyas: We are 90 or 80% Sunni. So they cannot⦠Itās a bit tricky now, because like the Allawi who control the government, because also they are Baāath. You know, that is how it starts, because they are a minority, but like the majority are Sunna. But because youāve been brainwashed during all these years about the Baāath and all these stuff, there was no difference between Sunni, Shia, Allawi, Christian, Jews. There was not such a thing in our community back then. Until the revolution started, people started using this vocabulary.
Lieke: Yeah, because now, at least the impression I got, is that all the different parties fighting each other, itās all divided by religious lines?
Eyas: No, now what is fighting is Sunna against Sunna. Thatās the fucked up part also, like why.. And of course they get supported also by Hezbollah, for example, or from Turkey. Theyāve been supported. But again, the do not send soldiers, they just give weapons and supplies and thenā oke, theyāll kill each other nowā. But like, yeah, you see it in the neighbourhood itself. There was in Hommes, there was a checkpoint. In the same family there was one brother on the side of the revolution and one on the side of the army. And they had to stay in the same checkpoint, against each other. Brother and brother. And then both leaders say oke start shooting. Youāre going to start shooting, you know. So he killed his own brother. Because of that. So, this is how, like small stories like this were shared. And you see a lot, in the first year, people start becoming aware of that. So you see a lot regions were soldiers start like, oke Iām not going to shoot you, you are my brother, you know. So you see the soldiers coming out and also the rebels coming out and they started hugging. But after that these two people had been killed. By who? We donāt know. They also donāt want to share that like, āhey we are also brothers, letās not kill each otherā. Both people be dead, from both sides, soā¦
Lieke: And I take it that stories like that didnāt appear in the media of course?
Eyas: No, but thatās the thing, they donāt show you that here. But I can show you right now on youtube. I can just type it in Arabic and then youāll see it. And like, they always know, the government says this, like.. If the government takes over the area and thereās armed people in it. If they deliver their weapons, the government can forgive them, you know. Say āoke, you carry a weapon. If you donāt kill anybody, you go freeā. So to encourage the peace again, this is how the government starts. They take over an area, theyāre surrounding it and they say like oke, you have 15 days to give your weapons. If youāre free, we will send the busses with all the civilians in it. If you want to stay and fight, stay and fight.
Claudia: And do you think this has helped to bring more peace?
Eyas: Yeah, yeah. You see in, especially in Aleppo, like in the West side, or East side, East side, yeah. When the government starts taking over, they send busses. We call it the green busses, if you google it you will see it. So itās like, they used to be the public transportation busses. Cause thereās no public transportations they use it to carry civilians from the rebel areas out to the safe zones. And they close it again. If you want to fight, we are just going to bomb this neighbourhood. And youāre dead. So they give options. Like the last things the government will do is start bombing when there are civilians in there. Of course there would be civilians because they donāt want to go, because they also have been kidnapped for example or have been hostages from their side, from the rebels. So if they start bombing, they are bombing civilians.
Claudia: And do you think there is any end in sight, for the conflict? Do you think the end is coming soon?
Eyas: No. Not now. I think itās like more than 5 years, 10 years, even more?
Claudia: So even more than 5 years?
Eyas: Yeah.
Lieke: Because it was also, like, what you said; They gave the options. It was also for fighters the option to go to Idlib, right? And now they are all there.
Eyas: Yeah, now they are in Idlib now. Yes, they are all in Idlib now. And you can see the.. Itās, the whole force is like.. Itās also like a strategic game, they played it. If you want to go to Idlib, go there. So they put them in one zone supported by Turkey. But then.. Now, all the focus is on Idlib. And now itās been bombed and everything. So, Aleppo has been freed two weeks ago, so the airport started again working immediately. Sixteen February, when it has become free. And next date the airport is working, so you can see immediately, everything goes back to normal. And like, the airport was off for seven years, because it was controlled by the rebels.
Claudia: Was that the only airport?
Eyas: In Aleppo? Yeah. And like really international, so, everything would come from Europe, would land in Aleppo and then for example go to Asia. Itās always been like this, to Aleppo city.
Lieke: Because Aleppo and Damascus were economic relevant areas right. They were both just.. had their own thing?
Eyas: Yes. So there was.. Like, we said we are the capital. Aleppo is the economy capital of Syria and just like the Hague, the big cities, and Amsterdam.
Lieke/Claudia: I think weāre done eright?
Eyas: Did I answer all your questions?
Lieke: Yes, I think so.
Claudia: Yes, it was a very pleasant conversation, very detailed.
Emma: Can I have one final question?
Eyas: Yes.
Emma: Now that the airport is open again, are you considering..
Eyas: No. Iām not. No. Because even if Iām Dutch, for example.. But in Syrian law, in our constitution it says that you can have your Syrian nationality, plus another nationality. So if Iām Dutch now, I can still be Syrian. And that is also why the Dutch people or the Dutch government cannot take my nationality, just like the Palestinians for example. Thatās why, if I go back to Syria, they say but āno you are Syrianā. Youāre not Dutch now. So now you are.. Where have you been? For seven years, you know. So, for now? I donāt think so. And not even in five years, six years. Even if Iām Dutch.
Claudia: And even if the conflict ended and it was peaceful again?
Eyas: Itās not going to be same. People change. Iām changed. So itās never going to be the same thing.
Lieke: We have just a small thank you gift, Iāll just grab it.
Eyas: Thank you. Itās tea?
Lieke: Yes, it is. So thank you again for willing to do the podcast.
Claudia/Emma: Yes, thank you for your time.
Eyas: Yes, itās my pleasure, for me like, I want people to become aware of that you know. And like Amnesty, Iāve been supporting it for two years now already. Iāve been standing [unclear] outside, say, you know āwhat is thatā. If you have a key.. you know, this mindset, if you⦠Every week, every month, I get this new shot for their newspaper, so thatās nice. So yeah, thank you for that. Thank you for listening.
Lieke: Yeah of course, it was very interesting.
Eyas: My pleasure. Itās just again.. you will hear different stories from different people. Iām not saying that Iām.. My own words will not be everything. Every people will have different opinion.
Lieke: No of course, but itās like you said that those different stories together..
Eyas: Yes, so you need to collect all the stories of all parties.
Claudia: To really understand.
Eyas: And you need to be open minded also. The moment.. If somebody.. If you have for example a crush on somebody from the rebels. Youāll think now āoh theyāre the true ones you knowā. So you need to put your emotions aside and see the big picture. So, everybody is saying the truth. But itās not the truth.
Lieke: Itās their version of the truth.
Claudia: Their version of events.
Eyas: Yes.
Emma: Alright, thatās a good end for the podcast.
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